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 Post subject: Question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:22 am 
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I just discovered this site a few days ago. There is something just a little disturbing to me. It seems that a lot of people put the blame on the bank where they deposited the fake checks. I was wondering how it is the banks fault and why the bank should take a loss on it. I know that this will probably get me in hot water but I am curious.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:46 am 
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I know that when I first became a victim I blamed my bank because when I brought in the check and asked them when it would be verified as good and I would not have to ever worry about there ever being any problems with the check . . . they told me that the check would be verified as good in 24 hours . . . I took that to mean that THEY were going to verify that the check was good, but all it really means is that they will put the money in your account and it will be available to you in 24 hours . . . it actually can take 7 business days or more for the check to be verified as good . . . had the bank told me THAT I would have NEVER touched the money BEFORE the 7th business day, and had I waited that long I would not have become a victim.

I trusted that the bank was giving me accurate information about the check clearing process and timeline.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:35 pm 
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Thank you admin. I was wondering because I actually work for a credit union in the accounting department. It is my department where return checks come to. I can only say that because of Reg CC we are limited in the time we can put holds on checks. I have actually had checks come back after six months as counterfeit, this does not happen often fortunatley.

The scammers are getting better everyday. I had a check come back a couple weeks ago that would have fooled even myself if I had been on the front line taking it in for deposit. The only advice I can add to the really good advice I've seen here is don't take the money out of your account before 6 weeks are up (most of them will be returned in this time frame).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:51 am 
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When someone loses money they look for someone to blame, it is human nature.

The banks work within a framework of laws, including Reg CC, which try to speed transactions. These very laws that make banking faster and more convienent are the same laws that end up causing a majority of the problems that we see with counterfeits.

In essence people want the bank to be the "verifier of funds" and the government is looking to speed transactions for the convienence of the masses. These two goals do not always go hand in hand.

It puts the financial institution in the middle and many people do not understand the behind scenes work that is required to clear checks.

Bottom line, there will always be problems, education is the key for the customers and bank employess.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:25 am 
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Location: WI
Here is the thing I don't understand. All of the counterfeits I have seen do not have the security features that are printed on the fake check. If the banker taking the check in would check for these wouldn't that be nearly a sure fire sign of it being fake?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Zeldar wrote:
I can only say that because of Reg CC we are limited in the time we can put holds on checks. I have actually had checks come back after six months as counterfeit, this does not happen often fortunatley.


Since we started this site over 4 years ago, I have learned about Reg CC and other banking laws. I guess I still don't get why when I asked the teller "How long will it take for this check to be verified as good?" they could not have answered "It will be available in 24 hours, but may not be verified for 10 business days or more." Also, when I came back days later and asked if the check was cleared, I feel like the bank should have been able to tell me that the money was avaible in my account, but had not yet been verified as clear. Instead what they told me was that everything looks good, no problems.

I have compared this to the kind of questioning that we all go through at the airports . . . "Has anyone given you anything to take on the plane?" "Has your luggage been with you at all times?" . . . they are safety questions for everyone involved, and yes, it might take longer to get through the process, but in the long run, if you "do the right thing" and save someone from becoming a victim, isn't it worth the few extra seconds it took to tell the customer the FULL truth (that the check is available but not verified) worth it?

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Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:41 pm 
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I train my tellers to never answer when a check will clear, only when the money will be available. Reg CC makes money available before the checks can sometmes be returned.


You must understand check cashing, the only check a bank can cash is it's on check. Every other check must deposited and money is them made available to the customer with their account acting as an offset.


So when you take a check from Wells Fargo to Bank of America (where you have an account) they DO NOT cash the Wells check, they take it for deposit and the may make some of the money available to you as a convienence. If the check is returned it is posted against you account.

This concept is not well understood inside banking and is not understood at all outside of banking.

Once again education is the key.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:44 pm 
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russellj84 wrote:
Here is the thing I don't understand. All of the counterfeits I have seen do not have the security features that are printed on the fake check. If the banker taking the check in would check for these wouldn't that be nearly a sure fire sign of it being fake?



On the fake money orders and cheques, they are missing the security features, but 99% of counterfeit CHECKS are printed on good check stock and they have all of the security features. We teach tellers not to rely on security features on checks but to look for unusual transaction activity on a person's account. If you deposit an unusual check or a large check then these are the checks we need to verify.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
We teach tellers not to rely on security features on checks but to look for unusual transaction activity on a person's account. If you deposit an unusual check or a large check then these are the checks we need to verify.


I sure wish someone would have done that very thing when I went to cash mine at my bank, I would have waited to see if it would have cleared or not. And the same goes for Western Union, I'm still livid that they don't even try to check into a "suspicious" wiring of funds knowing full well that they are a "major" player in these scams. Asking simple questions like, "do you know the person you are sending this amount of money to?", "did you get a check in the mail by a stranger who asked you to deposit it and then wanted you to immediate cash it and wire it"? No they don't even try because they make so much money off of these transfers! Unfortunately there are a lot of nieve people out there and they are not familiar with the inside workings of a bank or financial institution. I totally agree that education is the key and unless these institutions start educating the public, this madness will only continue to get worse and claim more victims. It's so sad when all it would take is a few extra minutes to ask more questions and maybe prevent someone else from becoming a victim. Had my bank questioned me and explained to me that this may be a scam, I never would have wired those funds in the first place because at the time I was nieve and had no knowledge of this type of scam. We are working hard where I live to get this education into the schools and teach the kids about these scams before they go out in the world and fall prey to one. Education "is" the answer I have no doubt. The more people including the financial institutions who are willing help to educate the public about these scams, the more educated the public will become therefore reducing the amount of people falling victim to these scams and reducing the enormous loss everyone including the banks will incur because of them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:06 am 
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reverse wrote:
I train my tellers to never answer when a check will clear, only when the money will be available. Reg CC makes money available before the checks can sometmes be returned.


But do they tell that information to the customer . . . that the money is available before the check it "clear"?

I agree, education is the key, but I think that if we focus on education of this one key fact . . . available does NOT equal clear . . . it would help to stop a lot of these scams. (and when I say education, I mean of people both inside the bank industry and the customers)

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:19 pm
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admin wrote:
reverse wrote:
I train my tellers to never answer when a check will clear, only when the money will be available. Reg CC makes money available before the checks can sometmes be returned.


But do they tell that information to the customer . . . that the money is available before the check it "clear"?

I agree, education is the key, but I think that if we focus on education of this one key fact . . . available does NOT equal clear . . . it would help to stop a lot of these scams. (and when I say education, I mean of people both inside the bank industry and the customers)


To be honest with you, I cannot, nor can anyone at your bank tell you when a transit check clears, the only people that know when a transit check clears is the bank the check is drawn on.

I would never pretend to tell somebody a check has cleared, it could come back months later. We can only tell them that the money is available.

How would you suggest that a bank could have the knowledge of a check "clearing" through another bank?

Like I said before education is the key.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:21 pm 
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Quote:
To be honest with you, I cannot, nor can anyone at your bank tell you when a transit check clears, the only people that know when a transit check clears is the bank the check is drawn on.

How would you suggest that a bank could have the knowledge of a check "clearing" through another bank?


So basically, if the check does NOT clear, your bank would be notified, but if it DOES clear, you never get any formal "notification"

Okay . . . would it be possible for tellers/bank employees to tell a customer who asks "When will this check clear?" that the only way to verify that a check has cleared is to contact the bank of issue?

This is really the part that messes customers up . . . available, verifed and cleared . . . if we could all work together to let people know who does what and in what time frame each occurs, it would help

correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the correct definitions of each term would be . . .

available - customer can use the money, but customer is still liable if check comes back as "bad"; bank of deposit makes the money available in (on average) 24 hours

verified - the check has completed the entire check clearing process and this is when the money is either okay to use, or the check is found to be fake; the bank of issue completes this process.

(cleared and verifed seem to be interchanged a lot)

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
Follow our blog http://scamvictimsunited.wordpress.com/
Find us on Twitter, Facebook and more http://www.retaggr.com/page/ShawnMosch
_______________________________________________
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Buy us a coffee to say thanks ~ http://www.scamvictimsunited.com/donations.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:43 pm 
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There is no such thing as Verified, the check could be stolen (and the owner has no idea) or when you call, there could be funds available and when the check presents all the money could have already been withdrawn.

Banks receive no notification of a check clearing, only if it is returned. If a bank received notification of clearing of every check, think of the tremendous amount of information and storage bank would be required to receive and keep. Not fiscally possible.

The only term is available, that implies that the money is available to you but if the check is returned then you are still responsible.

On the 24 hour deal, if a counterfeit is presented to a bank they have 24 hours to return the check. Keep in mind it takes a day to present a check to the fed, even electronically, then a day for the fed to present the check to the paying bank, then they have 24 hours to return the check back to the fed, then the fed must return it to the original bank. This whole process normally takes 5 to 7 business days. If you are dealing with government instruments (USPS Money Orders) or foreign bank checks there is no limit to the amount of time they have to return a check.

If the check has a bad routing number or is misrouted when sent to the paying bank then the 24 hour rule is out the window becasue of the misroute.

What it all boils down to is that Reg CC makes money available far too fast for anything to be returned. Contact your elected officials and make them aware their law has been used to steal thousands of dollars from innocent people.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 pm 
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reverse wrote:
What it all boils down to is that Reg CC makes money available far too fast for anything to be returned. Contact your elected officials and make them aware their law has been used to steal thousands of dollars from innocent people.


I agree . . . there needs to be changes made to the banking laws to protect customers, but could you still answer this . . .

Quote:
would it be possible for tellers/bank employees to tell a customer who asks "When will this check clear?" that the only way to verify that a check has cleared is to contact the bank of issue?


(When I deposited my check, I was told that it would be "verifed" as good in 24 hours, and then when I returned 48 hours later I was told that it had "cleared", and I know that these terms have also been used by other scam victims, that is why I asked you specifically about these terms.)

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
Follow our blog http://scamvictimsunited.wordpress.com/
Find us on Twitter, Facebook and more http://www.retaggr.com/page/ShawnMosch
_______________________________________________
Has this site helped you?
Buy us a coffee to say thanks ~ http://www.scamvictimsunited.com/donations.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:58 pm 
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You got bad information


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